Spy-Guy 74
Almost in Canada, MN
Joined: 07/25/2003
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Philip, thanks for your input on the new class structure for Formula 600, I can honestly say we're thinking in totally different directions. I'm more than willing to listen to all the ideas anyone has, because I've been wrong before and more than willing to admit it.
One thing that would really interest me, is Marcel's take on this matter. I once heard he didn't even like the thought of stock 600's with pipes for a class to replace Champ 440. This is purely here say on my part, as by no means did I ever here him say this. I've only met Marcel once and that was a couple of years ago in Beausejour, but I respect the fellow for what he has done for ovals over the years. Seems like a stand up fellow, and I'd like to hear his thoughts on this topic. If your really bored Phil, your always welcome to help me with some clutching and chassis handling issues!! Have a new Wahl chassis and it looks between scary fast and wicked fast, with your help we could make sure it's wicked fast!!
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that 31 car
Next to the big swamp. Menchalville, WI.
Joined: 02/15/2002
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Greg,Phillip,David and others:
As some of you know, or may not know,there was some collaboration between Chuck, Todd and I on this format proposal. The concept was Chuck and Todd's and they asked me to fill in the language needed to make it viable. I was happy to fulfill that part of the deal and operated independently of USSA in this proposal. This proposal was presented among others at our USSA Spring convention. The proposal was discussed deeply and opposing points were aired. With this as background I will offer my PERSONAL opinions.
Stock: the quicker we can move to a new format the better. The "slammed" stockers we run now are limited to few drivers, way too high buck, and more intricate than Champ sleds. Not only do the Houle's and Wahl's of the world have to work out all the geometry to make it corner, fight transfer issues, and do all the basics needed to set one up, they need to do it in the confines of a stock chassis.Reality is there are only 4 or 5 Pro Stockers out there and some of them are 3 to4 years old right now. Todd's well meaning attempt at a series for them did little, if any, to increase interest and participation. Stock in the past was a discipline that taught set up, driving skill, clutching, and finesse. That has all been lost.
A stock sled will go slower than present stockers, true, but if all in the class go slower, so what, When we allowed chassis changes to our present stockers, we evolved a new breed of hybrid driver, Champ talent, a need for speed, and in most cases on some sort of program from the manufacturer. No longer was stock a learning area, a place to grow in talent. Because the existing guys in the class all see it as slower, you hear a big outcry, but reality is the guys in it now need to make the next step. What is needed is a whole new group, a group that knows they won't need to run against a Houle Ski Doo, or a Wahl Polaris, they will however have to run against other Polaris's, Ski Doo's, Arctic Cats, and Yamaha's. The question is will this group form up or not, if they do, we will again have stock, if they don't all forms of "stock" will die. My thought is so be it. We are at a serious crossroads in ovals, 3-4 stockers a weekend don't cut it, the hope is the reversion to true stock will make the difference, if it don't, then it's over and lets concentrate on the appropriate mod classes that draw drivers, crowds, and promoters. Manufacturer contingency only, no program sleds, no factory "authorized" drivers. Pure raw talent in both set up and driver skill starting from anew. Clutching, studding, rear suspension set up, driving skill, especially the special "finesse" needed to drive a sled that needs a subtle touch. Not only will the participants learn driving skill, the crew will learn the set up skills that are lost on mods. Ask your self why many of the newest Snow cross mechanics are old guys from the oval discipline, Bender, Thorsen, Steve Houle, George Sherrard,Steve Decker and a lot of others, these guys came from oval, learned the process, developed the skills. I'm sure the old guys will remember,stockers always had that dirt track style, a little tail loose, always fluid, now we see the good ones glued down to the track,"on rails" some times better than Champs, you only get that way cause the sled is nothing more than a Champ with a big dress. Reversion is not always bad and now is the time. So much for this deal.
I will post on the other classes and Juniors soon.
Thanks for the time
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Ice Ghost
Message Board
Joined: 12/26/2007
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Jerry...that was a perfect answer to the problem.
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kenlacy
Foooore!
Joined: 10/25/2001
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Just to be sure I am understanding this correctly, you would like to see Stock go back to Stock - not aftermarket 116 skids - correct? If driver #'s do not increase after a few years and the manus show no interest then be done with stock completely. That is the same thing that was talked about at the Pro-Ice meeting. Some were concerned about the money they have already spent but Fontaine made a valid point, they can save those skids for when they move up - assuming that would be ones intention after spending some time in stock.
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Pol-Cat
Stuntin like my daddy
Joined: 12/22/2003
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I don't consider myself a racer, more of a fan, but have raced a few oval sprints, a oval enduro, a handfull of cross-countries, and made a few 660' runs. I read alot about drivers and owners and their idea's to make ovals better and draw bigger crowds, but really haven't read anything about somebody really talking to the casual fans (not diehard fans like myself that will watch whatever is out there racing) in regards to what they want to see, aren't they the people you really need to impress and draw the interest of? The racer's surely need to give input as to how/what/when they are racing, but if you rely on the racers to try and come up with the idea's that are designed to draw the crowds, then oval racing ends up where it is today, in a much less then ideal situation. I think the stock class needs to be run with stock sleds, not a "stocker" that setup and on the ice cost about $12,000-$14,000 to have a shot at winning. Vintage racing is the only growing spot of oval's right now, and I would have to believe it's because it is fairly cheap, and doesn't require near as much knowledge to set them up and be competitive. Will the true stockers be slower then the current stockers? of course, but the champ sleds I believe run slower lap times at ER then the old F1 twin trackers used to, but you have more racers and more exciting races IMO. Whatever the answer is, I hope you great people that pour tons of time, money, and energy into oval racing can find the combination that will make it excel again. Good luck. Aaron Stephan
My vision is better then my hearing...shut up and show me something.
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that 31 car
Next to the big swamp. Menchalville, WI.
Joined: 02/15/2002
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Ken:
You read it right. Stock skids, stock front end. Open to discussion on short ski's vs factory, but I don't buy the safety argument on short ski's so the other guys don't drive over them. That's a driver control issue. I do feel on some track conditions short ski's have better penetration and less "float". As far as concerns on suspension safety, we have had issues in the past, Arctics had special forged spindles in the 70's, Polaris had reinforced trailing arms in the 80's, heck, I've still got a bunch of those 1x1x.120 angle iron deals laying around. Individual problems in true safety can be addressed one on one.
And frankly I don't buy the deal about what do we we with the money we spent already, (skids etc) most of it is 3 to 4 years old now, and quite frankly in most cases was subsidized to the original owner by a manufacturer. In any other class, we may have three year old stuff, but it ain't in the same form you built it 3 years ago. Racing always evolves. Not to be rude, but I bet your next years F-500 will be improved over this seasons. And if you don't improve yours, you won't be able to stop others who will improve theirs. thanks
Korinek
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mbenoy119
IWA World Headquarters
Joined: 01/17/2005
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Jerry, you make some very good points. If it gets more stockers out on the ice, and the competition is fairly equal between the Manufacturers, I'm behind it 100%. What I fear happening would be the 1974 Merc Sno-Twister situation. They were so dominant early in the season that by the end of the year, every sled in the class was a Sno-Twister. With the sleds the way they are now, it could easily lend to a situation where a single sled with a more "user friendly" geometry would have a huge advantage. I might be way off base here too, so don't be afraid to tell me if I am. You have forgotten more about ice oval racing than I have ever known and you've seen a lot of things come and go. Just thought I would give my opinion.
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that 31 car
Next to the big swamp. Menchalville, WI.
Joined: 02/15/2002
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Mike: Your perception could become reality, but with the present market, the numbers built and the trail riders demands will temper what happened in 1974-75.
If you recall, those units were the SAME as what was sold for the trail. 76 Liquid cools however were not, although I agree that they were completely dominant in 250-340 and 440 stock classes. I feel the world is different right now and a dedicated circle burner is not in the cards for anyone, including Ski Doo. I do however expect that more true terrain related sleds will be seen coming from all manufacturers. Cross country is the right blend of sno cross style suspension, with lake style speed. SX's alone are great for the bumps, but no one has figured out how to run the track around all those weird corners it needs to take in SX form and still build some speed. Thats why the XC versions will be more user friendly to oval guys. If and when the economy cleans up, expect to see XC versions in most brands designed to be sold to guys who made ditch bangers out of old SX'ers. The market will be right in a few years, the young guys who took old SX units and trailized them will be sick of not be able to go really fast, and the constant getting beat up at slow speeds with the shock package, these new civilized XC style rockets will be the answer. that to me is good, cause if the oval thing works,these sleds will be a lot easier to changeover so to speak.
On a personal note, Mike I sent a email to you at work a few days back, did you get it?
PM me if you didn't, has to do with some unsettled business.
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WAVEY DOG #26 OSRF
Davisburg, Michigan
Joined: 03/07/2002
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Mike
The situation you brought up about the Sno- Twisters being too dominate has always been there in the stock classes. I started out racing on a Thunder Jet and that was the sled to have that year and the next, even though Yamaha had the same motor but the chassis was not as good! Then I had to move to the Sno- Twister for a couple of years. Next I raced the 77 Arctic Z which was great for the 340 class but the 77 Ski- Doo was better in the 440 class. 1978 I moved to Ski- Doo because they had a strong 250, 340 and 440 sled, that year there was some equal competition with the Polaris RXL. My point is you can't be too brand loyal and you need to really make a informed decision on which sled is going to be most competitive. It's always a gamble. I don't like the thought of having sleds so nailed down to the track they can't break the back end loose. I never thought limiting the amount of studs was a good idea but now with the rubber track it might be the way to go!!! I think when I was racing sleds with cleated tracks there was more of a balance between the amount on studs and the carbide you ran under the ski. That's just some food for thought for you guy's that are involved in racing today. David
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CDecker04
Eagle River WI
Joined: 12/04/2007
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Mike, I remember very well the year of the mercs. Like Jerry said, they were suppose to be like there every day trail sled. But mix in a rather small build rule, a very aggrsive president of merc, and what ski-doo did the year before and you'll know what happend in 76. There is a very easy fix to this so as it will never happen again. The min. build rule for the one or two sleds dedicated by the four manufactures need to have a min. build rule that forces them topick a true trail sled. On a side note, after merc spent all the money and all the R&D to dominate stock racing that year, I'll never forget the 1976 world series in St.paul Mn. When the 10 sled final lined up for the 250 stock feature there where 9 mercs and 1 ski-doo 245 RV. When the checkerd flag waved it was the 245 RV in first with 9 mercs in tow. I remember it well because it was my brother Allen on the 245 RV.
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